T-34-76 STZ Model 1941 - 130 Tank Bde.

[greybeard]

Okay, seems to be catching on, I'd best get in too. My first vBlog . . .

My subject is an STZ T-34 from 130 Tank Brigade, 21 Tank Corps, Southern Front (Kharkov area), April 1942. The base kit is DML/CH #6355, the "Model 1941 STZ" kit.

http://thmp.hobby-site.com/T-34_thumbs/chc6355t.jpg

I'll be building pretty much from the box (who am I kidding?) with photoetch from the kit, supplemented by the louvers from Aber, and maybe some other stuff. The 550mm waffle tracks from the kit are accurate for these, so that's easy, and the running gear is also pretty much stock.

I'll post pics of the build to date later this evening, but this is the tank I've chosen to do:
http://thmp.hobby-site.com/T-34_Images/T-34_Dzerzhinski.jpg

I'm not convinced of the colour rendering, and the tactical designator should be Л2-КС, but it will give you all an idea.

I may decide to select a different vehicle from this unit, depending on how many more photos I can unearth, but so far "Ordzhonokizde", "Dzerzhinski", "Shchors", "Zheleznjakov" and "Kikvidze" are known from photos. This one looks easiest because I have an old decal sheet somewhere (Verlinden?) with the inscription.

Vehicles from this Brigade all carried the tactical code and a small Red Star on the turret. Photos show both the early welded STZ turret and later "chopped" turret were used. I'm still sorting through a bunch of new finds, and will post more photos as I come across them.

Here's "Ordzhonokidze":

http://thmp.hobby-site.com/T-34_images/Ordzhonokidze-sm.jpg

Here's another (poor) shot of these vehicles on excercise:

http://thmp.hobby-site.com/T-34_images/t_34_02.jpg

I have several others I can scan and post from a variety of sources. I have a ton of otehr information too, so any of you who are also building this, or considering it, feel free to ask.

References to hand:
T-34 Mythical Weapon (Air Connection)
T-34 In Action (Ajaks Press)
Stalingrad '34' (Frontline Illustrated 4-06)
T-34-76 Bottom to top - Part 1 (Frontline Illustrated 6-06)
T-34-76 Bottom to top - Part 2 (Frontline Illustrated 1-07)
T-34 (Ballantyne Books) - very old, but with photos of this unit
Soviet Tanks in Combat - T-28, T-34, etc. (Concord)
T-34 Medium Tank (Baryatinsky; Ian Allen)
plus several other miscellaneous campaign-based volumes from Osprey and FI.
There are also tons of photos of restored vehicles around the web to draw upon.

I will post links and photos as the seem useful.

Cheers
Scott Fraser

[greybeard]

Some links to surviving STZ T-34s:

Bondarevka — spring 1942 production:
http://pblinov.narod.ru/galleries/tanks/3476/stz42/bondarevka.html

Medyn' — fall 1941 production:
http://pblinov.narod.ru/med3476/STZ.html

Neither of these are in terriffic shape. The example at Medyn' still shows many characteristics shared with tanks from Zavod № 183, although the tank at Bondarevka has the notched hull joints common in later STZ-built tanks.

Here are two examples of cast turrets with a 'Barrikady' mantlet, produced at Zavod № 264, summer-fall 1942:
http://legion-afv.narod.ru/T-34-76-tur_10_Volgograd.html
http://legion-afv.narod.ru/T-34-76-tur_14_Volgograd.html

examples of welded STZ turrets, summer-fall 1942:
http://legion-afv.narod.ru/T-34-76-tur_11_Volgograd.html
http://legion-afv.narod.ru/T-34-76-tur_18_Volgograd.html

and another two from Zavod № 264, same period:
http://legion-afv.narod.ru/T-34-76-tur_12_Volgograd.html
http://legion-afv.narod.ru/T-34-76-tur_15_Volgograd.html

Apart from showing minor construction details, these photos speak volumes about the level of finish of the vehicles. For several months during late 1941 STZ was the only facility producing T-34s, and the urgent need for tanks meant the end of the careful assembly and finish of the pre-Barbarossa T-34s. From that point, the challenge was to simplify the design and expedite production, and careful manufacturing tolerances for non-critical items was a thing of the past. This is particularly evident in the welds of the hull and turret, where large gaps were sometimes "puttied over" to get the vehicles completed quickly.

Cheers

[holmerz]

Good to see you getting started up Scott :thumb:. It always makes it much interesting when a specific vehicle is build. Keep it coming.

btw is there any information about Shchors to be found online?

\Erik

[greybeard]

btw is there any information about Shchors to be found online?
\Erik

How's a photo?


http://thmp.hobby-site.com/T-34_Images/130Bde_Shchors.jpg

This is from Frontovaya Illustratsia 6-2000 "Kharkov 1942", p.10. It's the clearest I've seen it reproduced. All these vehicles are camouflaged, and display much the same pattern. Some artists' renderings give green and brown for "Shchors" and sand and brown for the others, but I'm not inclined to put much faith in anyone's guess. There's just not enough known about Soviet armour camouflage of the period. Shchors is the second vehicle in line.

From "T-34 In Combat", here is J.R.Jackiewicz's rendition of "Shchors":

http://thmp.hobby-site.com/T-34_Images/Shchors_clr.jpg

and here is "Ordzhonokidze":
http://thmp.hobby-site.com/T-34_Images/Ordzhonokidze_clr.jpg

Lastly, here is Don Greer's interpretation from the ancient Squadron/Signal "In Action" book:
http://thmp.hobby-site.com/T-34_Images/t34_20.jpg

From what I've read about Soviet camouflage, I believe the light green JRJ has chosen for "Shchors" is very much too light for green, and may be the brown (red hues again). He also has the pattern wrong and the markings in the wrong place if you compare closely with the photo.

I have a book on Soviet camouflage colours and practices coming from Moscow, but it will be a couple of weeks. It may have more info. in the meantime there was a thread on ML some months ago about 4BO Green where Steve Zaloga offered some comments and posted a photo of a model by Aleksei Aksenov as a rough guide to what the current state of research is. Suffice to say, more is known about the Dark Side of the Moon.

HTH

Scott

[Gopher]

nice subject!
i'll be watching with great interest!

One mistake on colour schems - not Л2-ИС, it must be Л2-КС

[bother37]

Very interesting photos. Makes me wish I would've picked a different scheme for my model. I picked "white 85" from the kit decals. There are photos of it in the Concord T-34 book. It has a white turret stripe, but still is not as interesting as the version you are doing.

[Panzergrenadier]

This will be so cool once painted! :)

[skeletondude]

I thought you will never start it! :D Will you make a diorama with this tank,or is it going to be another one? Anyway,good luck to you on this one.

Talk to you soon
Marek

[RickLawler]

This will be good! Scott, thanks again for all of your help...can't wait to see you put all the information that you have put to good use.

rick

[greybeard]

Andrey: I knew it wasn't Л2-ИС, but thought for the longest time it was Л2-ХС. It wasn't until I saw the photos in FI 6-2000 that it was clear it should be Л2-КС. I just wish I had better decals for it.

Brother: '85' is another interesting tank. The photos in the Concord bok are a good start. Watch for the front fenders . . .
Here's a scrap view of the type fitted to '85':http://thmp.hobby-site.com/T-34_Images/'85'_fenders.jpg

Siim: Thanks, I've wanted to build this for many years, and was ever so pleased to see the DML kit, which makes it very easy. It will be a very cool model.

Marek: I'd like to make a diorama, but first I have to make the tank! :) I'd like to put it in a scene based loosely on the two photos at top, with the tank advancing, supported by infantry, perhaps taking the surrender of some Germans (using figures modified from DML 6277). The biggest problem is trying to find Soviet infantry in 1941-42 pattern uniforms (with greatcoats).

Thanks guys.
Cheers

[schlichtr]

This is great Scott, looking forward to your build. Notice Mr. Greers profile also has the dove tail joints on the early hull. Wonder what photo he based it off. So far I have only seen the one pic you posted on my V-bench and thats a stripped down hull. Still searching. There is going to be alot of info between all the T-34 v-benches (sp) that are going on.

Roy

[greybeard]

This is great Scott, looking forward to your build.
LOL! Me, too, if I can get building. I am still printing page after page of drawings, and reading, trying to digest it all. The postman is being cruel, too — Monday he brought my SU-100, Tuesday the long-awaited smooth plate tracks for my Model 1940, and today the Zvezda Model 1943 and DML#6266. I already got too much stuff happening!


Notice Mr. Greers profile also has the dove tail joints on the early hull. Wonder what photo he based it off. So far I have only seen the one pic you posted on my V-bench and thats a stripped down hull. Still searching. There is going to be alot of info between all the T-34 v-benches (sp) that are going on.
Roy

I don't trust "artist's renditions" and never have. I have a couple more photos of the unit, and may come across more. Early in 1942 anything is possible — the new STZ hulls and turrets were in production but the real campaigning season had not begun, so anything from late 1941 is just as posssible. The different types of turrets visible are enough evidence of that.

It's going to be fun, anyways. I have another half-hour's work to do then I'm off to build for the rest of the day.

Cheers

[kkiron]

I think it will be a very cool model,A good start!!!
there are too little books sold in china,I just know a book name "T34 Mythical Weapon",I think it will be useful:)

[greybeard]

This is great Scott, looking forward to your build. Notice Mr. Greers profile also has the dove tail joints on the early hull. Wonder what photo he based it off. So far I have only seen the one pic you posted on my V-bench and thats a stripped down hull. Still searching. There is going to be alot of info between all the T-34 v-benches (sp) that are going on.

Roy

Not looking good for Bonzo . . .

I scanned in some photos from the old Ballantyne's book "T-34 - Russian armor" (gak - new, it cost me $1 in 1971). More images from 130 Bde:

http://thmp.hobby-site.com/T-34_Images/Scan01-sm.jpg

http://thmp.hobby-site.com/T-34_Images/Scan03-sm.jpg

http://thmp.hobby-site.com/T-34_Images/Dzerzhinskii-sm.jpg

Pardon the quality of the images, but this is the only place I've seen them published. Tweaking them doesn't do much to improve them, so they'll have to do.

Roy, heavy sigh, it would appear that I'm joining you in building a 1942-pattern tank. Looking closely at these photos, apart from the first image they have 24 bolts on the rear plate and the transmission hatch sits proud, indicating the later, third pattern STZ hull, like DML#6388 is supposed to portray. It would appear that this unit was equipped with new tanks in the Spring of 1942, so my hopes of not having to rework the hull from DML#6355 are toast.

There is a silver lining. By starting from the earlier kit, I won't have fit problems or need to fuss with rebuilding the engine deck to fix the problems with DML#6388. Robert Grabowski had a spiffy way of carving welds which he showed us during his Jagdtiger build, and I'll give that a try to show the interlocking hull welds. This also means I won't have to use the Aber set to dress it up, since the bulk of the fittings are more typical of late-production T-34s. The sets from LionRoar or Voyager or even the old OTM set will suffice nicely with the parts included in the kit. The only lingering question is the turret, but I've already got enough to keep me awake without worrying about that right now.

More to follow . . .

[panamadan]

Another T34! Yea! Dan

[holmerz]

Very comprehensive research you're conducting here Scott, it's good to hear that you have reached a solution. Looking forward to the build ;).

I was wondering whether the two color camo was factory applied?

\Erik

[india11]

Hi Scott,

Great pics..and terrific subject...thanks for posting them.
Regards,
Ray Blythe.

[greybeard]

Very comprehensive research you're conducting here Scott, it's good to hear that you have reached a solution. Looking forward to the build ;).

Sometimes not knowing is better . . . sigh. This is more than I expected when I started this. Sort of like inviting three people in for dinner and then having to cook for fourteen.

As for a solution, I'm still trying to choose between the lesser of two evils. I am reluctant to start carving up a perfectly good 1941 hull, already started, to add in all the welds. Basically every plate needs to be redone — top, front, back, both sides, lower glacis, and bottom.

It might be easier to just bite the bullet, start completely from fresh, and build the hull up from .040 sheet styrene, suitably notched, and then add the engine deck from the kit and some photoetched fenders. (Or even build the deck, too, and save the entire hull for an SU-85 or Model 1943 conversion). I also have some Tamiya kits I can carve up if need be.

As I study these vehicles, it becomes evident that each one has unique features that don't necessarily match the "standard". "Dzerzhinski" for example, has the eight-bolt exhaust shrouds and 24-bolt plate, but keeps the rounded corners of the earlier radiator screens. Both that tank and "Ordzhonokidze" seem to have thin plates covering the engine air intake openings, and neither has the rear light. And so on.


I was wondering whether the two color camo was factory applied?
\Erik

I'm pretty sure it was done in the factory. Most of the tanks show a very similar pattern that would be unusual in a scheme applied at unit level.

Anyway, still lots of decisions to make before I get much farther.

Cheers
Scott

[DOJO]

Are you sure first photo is the same unit? As it's missig marking on the rear plate plus markings on the turret are much-much bigger.

on other note on the ДЗЕРЖИНСКИЙ on the last photo you can see it was written with "" so it should be ,,ДЗЕРЖИНСКИЙ"

[greybeard]

Are you sure first photo is the same unit? As it's missing marking on the rear plate plus markings on the turret are much-much bigger.

on other note on the ДЗЕРЖИНСКИЙ on the last photo you can see it was written with "" so it should be ,,ДЗЕРЖИНСКИЙ"

That is a good question. No, I'm not sure it's from the same unit. The setting and style of the photo seems familiar, which is why I included it, but in fact it is an earlier vehicle (27 bolts on rear plate, early transmission hatch, different stowage). Also, if the the 130th Bde. was completely equipped with new vehicles at this time, the fact that this one is with two other vehicles with No.183 (XT3) turrets would suggest it is not.

You're right about the quotes, too, but to write it „ДЗЕРЖИНСКИЙ" means switching character sets as well as keyboards, and I'm too lazy.

Cheers
Scott

[holmerz]

As for a solution, I'm still trying to choose between the lesser of two evils. I am reluctant to start carving up a perfectly good 1941 hull, already started, to add in all the welds. Basically every plate needs to be redone — top, front, back, both sides, lower glacis, and bottom.

It might be easier to just bite the bullet, start completely from fresh, and build the hull up from .040 sheet styrene, suitably notched, and then add the engine deck from the kit and some photoetched fenders. (Or even build the deck, too, and save the entire hull for an SU-85 or Model 1943 conversion). I also have some Tamiya kits I can carve up if need be.



Scott I have to admit that I have some difficulties visualizing the work that needs to be done, since my knowledge concerning the T-34 is limited.

The second solution though, would be very cool and it would be a unique vehicle (model).

\Erik

[greybeard]

A minor update that's not an update.

I have decided that I am not going to carve up my Model 1941 kit to build a Model 1942. Instead, I will build a new upper hull from scratch and scavenge parts from elsewhere. I found a couple of half-started DML T-34-85s from an estate sale, and they will be donor kits for the lower hull, driver's hatch and engine deck. This is not going to be a quick build — it will be a couple of weeks before the mailman brings these kits, and I will need to order some replacement fenders from Aber.

In the meantime, I have started on the new hull, in a manner of speaking. I have started drawing the STZ hull in 3D, using the best drawings I could find (from "Unknown T-34"), dimensional information from the now-defunct 1/16 scale T-34 Project (http://www.gjames.com.au/chris/t34/) and the scrap views from the FI monograph on STZ T-34s to come up with accurate 1/35 scale drawings of the STZ hull.

These are done, apart from some minor tweaking, and the paper prototype I have made fits fairly well. There are still some minor changes to make to the drawings, as the angles are tricky and (note!) don't quite work as drawn in the FI STZ book. I will finish them tomorrow and start cutting plastic for the new hull. I'm still trying to figure out my camera too, but I will try and take some presentable photos soon.

For now I am content to not melt my fingernails soldering the LionRoar PE set. I'm really not very good at soldering, but I got a new tip for my iron and it seems to work much better. It actually has a point, and is thinner than my thumb. I hope to get the new upper hull and engine deck ready in time for the arrival of the lower hull and fenders.

More to follow . . .

Cheers
Scott Fraser

[schlichtr]

Boy are you going to have fun.

Roy

[RickLawler]

Can't wait to see this.

Rick

[sharkmouth]

Scott.

Try to find a Model 1941 kit for the engine deck details (as well as the suspension tower covers) as they are visibly different from the T-34-85 parts you intend to use.

Also, why do you prefer the plans in "The Obscure T-34" as opposed to those in Frontline Illustrated books? (Yes, I translate the word into Obscure instead of Unknown. ;))

Regards,

[greybeard]

. . . why do you prefer the plans in "The Obscure T-34" as opposed to those in Frontline Illustrated books?

Hi Saúl. Short answer — more complete dimensional information. Whenever possible, I draw in 1:1 scale, then reduce to 1/35 scale once everything fits.

Thanks for the head's up about the engine deck. I just checked, and they are (of course) different. Rats.

I'm really reluctant to carve up a perfectly good Model 1941 kit just for that part. Naturally, the Zvezda and Tamiya kits also have the later deck. Murphy is not being kind to me with this model . . .

Cheers

[sharkmouth]

If you aren't removing the covers, note that you only need to add to them to get them closer to the smaller turret race diameter of the 76mm armed turret. This also means that the hold down bolts on the forward edge increase to four from three.

Mark Rethoret and Paul Gibson wrote a magnificent manuscript on modeling the T-34-76 before the recent releases by back-dating the T-34-85 hull. I only have a printout (lost the electronic version during a hard drive issue).

I see what you mean by having the dimensions shown in the plans of 'The Obscure T-34'...for a moment I thought you saw something in the Frontline Illustrated plans that was dimensionally incorrect (not the small detail omission from the top view which is visible in the rear view ;) I'll let you find that one on your own.)

Regards,

[Panzergrenadier]

I like where this is going.

Whenever possible, I draw in 1:1 scale, then reduce to 1/35 scale once everything fits.

Hmm, do you mean you draw a full sized wheel plan for example and then scale it down?

[greybeard]

Hmm, do you mean you draw a full sized wheel plan for example and then scale it down?

Yes. For example, the hull (minus fenders) is 256.8cm wide, the front plate is 5cm thick, so that's how they are drawn. Once it all fits, I scale it down and plot it out to make templates for cutting plastic.

Here's where it stands right now. The side plates still need to have notches cut in them, and there are some other minor tweaks to do, but it's coming along.

http://thmp.hobby-site.com/images/Clipboard01.jpg

Cheers
Scott

[sharkmouth]

will you offer a print out for those of us who won't mind 'cutting plastic'?

Regards,

[pwranta193]

Jeezuz Scott, wouldn't it be quicker to just machine them out 1:1 in the garage :D?

Okay - off topic, but this seems like the right bunch to ask:

Having another one of these STZ in the box to build - what is the likelyhood of one ending up in the rebuild yard at Leningrad? I don't know when the 1941 STZs came off the line - but would they have been trapped in Leningrad?

I'm thinking of scratching those applique plates and welds for a Leningrad up-armor.

[schlichtr]

There is a picture in the "Mythical Weapon" book of a STZ 1942 with additional armor on the front plate but the book says it was very rare for this model tank (photographically that is). And it wasn't the type seen coming from the Leningrad factory.

Roy

[greybeard]

Jeezuz Scott wouldn't it be quicker to just machine them out 1:1 in the garage :D?

Why mess around? This way they'll be 100% accurate. This will shortly become an aftermarket product, and I'd hate to disappoint . . .

Saúl, of course. If you or anyone else would like templates, email me and let me know what is the best file format for you.


Having another one of these STZ in the box to build - what is the likelyhood of one ending up in the rebuild yard at Leningrad? I don't know when the 1941 STZs came off the line - but would they have been trapped in Leningrad?

I'm thinking of scratching those applique plates and welds for a Leningrad up-armor.

The first deliveries of the new 'notched' hull were in January 1942, best information. By then, Leningrad was well and truly encircled, and I doubt they'd drive a tank across the ice (I wouldn't, anyway!). I haven't really looked, but I suspect most of the tanks in Leningrad were 1941 models, probably from the Kharkov factory.

STZ addded appliqué, too, although I think it was fairly rare.

HTH
Scott

[pwranta193]

at issue is my lack of T-34 smarts (or smarts in general :) )... I have exactly two Soviet refs, one for T-34, on hand, the Zaloga Concord books. Everything else I have is magazine builds, all of which are based on kits prior to the DML releases (speaking of which, I dug out the AFV Modeller with Sniper in it - terrifc shots, including the off set steel wheels).

The STZ that I am refering to is the earlier of the DML kits - you know the one you Started out with :). When you say 'notched hull' is that the version that I am working on/have another on shelf - or Roy's 'nose to the grindstone' 1942 version? Were STZs shipped all the way to the Baltic Front prior to hostilities (or up to encirclement)? You may have answered already, and I'm just not getting it. I'm just very new to the T-34 terminology.

Thanks for your patience guys.

[greybeard]

Paul, check your email.