Sd.Kfz.251/9 Ausf.D

[James Tainton]

I got the new 3 in 1 251 kit from DML the other day

http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/6233top.jpg

and chose to do the version w/ the tank gun mounted.

Step 1
http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/step1.jpg
of the instructions focuses on parts that fit on the inside of the lower chassis and a couple of suspension parts. The gas tank and other parts realy don't need to be made and glued in as they won't be seen in any case once the floor goes on. But I made mine anyway. - didn't bother topaint them though ;)
I choose to depart from the instructions and start with the suspension as the one assembly at the back needs to tie-in with the axle parts . The instructions are not clear about this but hopefully I can help clarify this for you.
So gluing the three parts together I then added the axle arms. There is a pin to help align things but to make sure the wheels all would be level later on I jury-rigged a jig using some I beam plastic strip
and solid rectangular stock. the I beam keeps everything in line on top as the rectangular stoch gently puts pressure underneath. The fit is just tight enough for things to line up. The I beam stuff is CA glued to a glass work surface- so it can be removed later and reused.

http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/1.jpg

the pennies add weight to the middle section to keep it flush with the glass surface.

http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/2.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/3.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/4.jpg

[James Tainton]

here is a closer look
http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/6.jpg

as you can see here after I let the assemby to set overnight the axles came out pretty straight. ;)
http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/5.jpg

so next I concentrated on getting the wheels detached from the sprues and cleaned up. These will need to be painted in the base colours and tireson the road wheels painted prior to the installing on the chassis. The area around the axles arms will need to be painted as well - before the road wheels go on.
http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/7.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/8.jpg

[johnnyboy]

lookin good james cant wait to get my mitts on this kit.and the other 3 in 1 once that comes any way i am really lookin forward to seeing more progress pics of this thanks johnny

[James Tainton]

here are some more pics of some of the sub assemblies.
gas tank and a few other items

http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/gas1.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/gasandbrake.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/floor.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/floor-2.jpg

on puttin the side armour pieces on I found it might have been better not to glue the seats,bench and ammo box in as yet- for painting access reasons.
front suspension
http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/front-suspension.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/front-suspension2.jpg
this will be sanded and tidied up.
tire
http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/fronttire.jpg

side w/ bench added
http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/side.jpg

[James Tainton]

dampers added and the dash board- a bit simple and not accurate on the dial ?
http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/bumpers.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/dash.jpg

[Tuna]

Wow Awsome... lol I'm jealous.. I shouldn't have bought the two AFV ones!!!.. I'll have to get the Dragon 251/22..

Thanks for sharing as always!

[M@ximus]

I to have bought the kit but mine has not arrived yet.

one question james are you going to use any after market products?

also have you heard about the other DML 251 C 3 in 1 kit?

[Sticky]

Looking nice. I do have one question though, do you ever sleep?

[James Tainton]

okay so with that all done I next glued the floor plate in place and the two side pieces as well- using testors liquid cement to allow a slow weld allowing some alighnment as things went along. I tacked the front firewall in as well to help figure out the angles of the side pieces . Then I taped the top part to the side pieces to hold everything in place to dry. This taping, instead of gluing, will allow access to the interior for detailing and painting. This model will be built mainly OOTB- plus any aftermarket stuff out there is for earlier Tamiya stuff. The detail on this kit appear to be pretty nice and except for a minor gap on one side at thge back the fit seems pretty nice. The front armour piece was glued in as well as the front suspension parts.

http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/tape1.jpg
as you can see the under floor area is totally covered up with the floor plate. :(
http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/tape3.JPG.jpg

The armour plate piece is in place here as well.
http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/tape2.JPG.jpg

[James Tainton]

here it is with the sides set in place and the top shell removed. The black is just to prime the area prior to painting in base colour- perhaps before I do all the rest off the body -we'll see.
I have added the front fenders and back plate.
http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/body.JPG.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/body2.JPG.jpg

next time I would leave the front seats , ammo case and back bench out till the inside is cleaned up and sanded- there are four knock out marks that need to be filled(I used two part 5-minute putty) and sanded smooth.
http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/body3.jpg

I encountered a small gap at the back joint where the side armour and back plate meet in this picture you can see it from the inside- nothing that a litttle putty can't hide.
http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/back.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/fill2.JPG.jpg

here the gun pieces are coming together. I didn't use the metal barrel as I found the one piece plastic barrel quite sufficient- there was no seam- I'll use the metal barrel for something else. Parts sanded and cleaned up
http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/gun.JPG_1.jpg

[James Tainton]

Here the two recesses from the knock-out marks are filled w/ two part putty. This stuff hardens in five minutes and is sandable- don't know the name of the stuff.
http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/insidefill.jpg

[sbuss]

James,

what do you use as reference for the Kanonenwagen? I have only seen pictures where the right-handed seat had been before, as the gun took away all available space.

Do you have any pictures of the right seat being installed?

Stefan

[James Tainton]

Originally posted by sbuss@Oct 12 2004, 12:21 AM
James,

what do you use as reference for the Kanonenwagen? I have only seen pictures where the right-handed seat had been before, as the gun took away all available space.

Do you have any pictures of the right seat being installed?

Stefan
"Reference? We ain't got no Reference. We don't need no Reference. I don't have to show you any stinking Reference!" (apologies to The Treasure of the Sierra Madre/Film)
http://www.darryl.com/badges/fullbadges.wav :lol:
No- I did not know that there was only one seat in place because of the gun, as I'm only building this type of vehicle for the first time- out of the box- to get familiar with the kit. I'm just following the instruction sheet. This APC I am totally unfamiliar with. Inevitably facts seem to show-up as I go along one of these "new builds", where I'm encountering the unknown. There is a learning curve. I'll make mistakes-that's how I learn. Thanks for the heads up. I did not know that about the seat. From what reference do you see that only one seat is installed? I wonder if you can scan and post it? (one pic with credit is cool for copyright.)
I have the Ryton book for the Schüztenpanzer. I'll go through that again. Can you give me a list of any reference you might be able to suggest to me, (and I'm sure others reading this may be interested as well.) Thanks for the info. ;)

[James Tainton]

well, sbuss, your question as well as a fit problem I was having this evening prompted me to get out the AFV Club version of this Kannon gun 251- and upon opening the box to my surprise it has the correct configuration that you speak of- one seat only for the driver. However the DML floor boards when compared to the AFV version are not detailed to allow this feature. There is no skid plate in the front area of the DML front seating area, like there is on the AFV one. There is only a pedestal for the seat to be glued to it. The middle transmission cover area seams bigger and better detailed on the AFV one compared to the DML one. So some not so minor fixing here will be required.
I also see a complete foul-up on the design of one of the armour pieces that goes on the front of the gun on the DML kit. The design is flawed here- I will post pics tommorrow- its late- but these questions will be revisited..... ;) Tchuss!

[sbuss]

James,

the reference i use is "Nuts and Bolts Vol. 6", more or less everything you want to know about the /9. Unless you try to build the late version, which is not too well covered.

Indide is a view into the fighting compartment, where you can see the missing seat. (Of course you can't see a missing seat, but you get the idea, i hope).

And, luckily for me, i don't have to scan and post this picture, as it is already available on the internet (http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Pit/3515/251/251-9.htm). ;)

Hopefully i didn't breach any forum rules by linking to that site...

Btw, i try to build a Kanonenwagen späte Ausf. at this moment, using Tamiyas 251/9 and a conversion set by MR-Modellbau. I had bought all this stuff along time ago and didn't want to throw it away when AFV announced the new kit. But it's hard work for me, as references for the vehicle's inside are scarce and the kit itself is nasty...

But maybe we can help each other during this building process.

Stefan

[James Tainton]

Originally posted by sbuss@Oct 12 2004, 03:07 AM
James,

the reference i use is "Nuts and Bolts Vol. 6", more or less everything you want to know about the /9. Unless you try to build the late version, which is not too well covered.

Indide is a view into the fighting compartment, where you can see the missing seat. (Of course you can't see a missing seat, but you get the idea, i hope).

And, luckily for me, i don't have to scan and post this picture, as it is already available on the internet (http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Pit/3515/251/251-9.htm). ;)

Hopefully i didn't breach any forum rules by linking to that site...

Btw, i try to build a Kanonenwagen späte Ausf. at this moment, using Tamiyas 251/9 and a conversion set by MR-Modellbau. I had bought all this stuff along time ago and didn't want to throw it away when AFV announced the new kit. But it's hard work for me, as references for the vehicle's inside are scarce and the kit itself is nasty...

But maybe we can help each other during this building process.

Stefan
I'm jealous- that's one of the Nuts and Bolts I don't have- OOP :angry:
Here I have taken pics of the DML floor and the AFV floor- plus a scan of a 251/1 Ausf D from a book I have called Colour Close-Up World War II Werhmacht Vehicles (http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/bookstore/Bookstore.aspx?ISBN=1861264267&Period=6&Section=5) by Jan Suermondt.
http://www.cybermodeler.com/hobby/reviews/ref/images/cro_wehrmachtt.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/dmlfloor.JPG.jpg

[sbuss]

James,
thanks again for these pictures, but the inside of the /9 was different to the one of the /1 you have posted.

If i remember correctly, there are some shots of the /9 early in your Schützenpanzer book from Ryton. Even in the early version the right seat had to be deleted to allow space for the gun. This is even more obvious as part of the armour plate had to be cut out.

Hope i could help,

Stefan

[James Tainton]

thanks again for these pictures, but the inside of the /9 was different to the one of the /1 you have posted.

Thanks for pointing that out but I did know this- ;)
I was posting the pic of the 251/1 for the floor pattern and the look of the transmission hump. I guess I should have been more clear about that. As you can see in comparison- I think the AFV floor boards are more accurate. Also because on the DML floor boards the seating pedestal humps are already molded into place , on both sides - it will be a job to get it back to the place where the AFV starts. The right hand side pedestal will need to be removed .Some aftermarket metal floor plating will be needed to be added for accuracy sake as well. It's a bit of a job.I wasn't posting it for reference on seating on a 251/9 :)

http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/AFV251/floor-2.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/AFV251/afvfloorboards.jpg

[sbuss]

ok, now i understand. i am a liitle bit slow, you know :(

Stefan

[sbuss]

btw, what are your plans for painting the Kanonenwagen?
Three color with Dunkelgelb as a base for sure, but how exactly? Do you have pictures of the /9 (i mean better ones then the ones in the Schützenpanzer book)?

Are you going to use the decals DML provided?

I am quite curios. :)
Stefan

[James Tainton]

No don't worry about it I'm the sloww one :lol:
not sure exactly what colour I'll be doing but maybe just straight yellow? I haven't really thought of it - Thanks for all your input! :)

[James Tainton]

so here I have cut out the seat and pedestal. It would have been easier to do this before gluing the floor down. I've tried to scrap it down so there is a little recess for the replacement plate to sit and I've tried to make a natural panel join with it. It's kinda ugly as it the first time and I'll probably have to strategically place the empty boots that come with the kit here.:lol:
http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/floorcut.jpg

now to make some replacement floor plate, I have poured some RTV rubber mold stuff to get a mold and then I'll cast some resin.
http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/floorpour.jpg

[sbuss]

Hello James,

over at Missing-lynx they posted a late Kanonenwagen yesterday.
It's made by Bob Oehler and i think the project will be covered in the new Book from Osprey on modelling german halftracks.

Maybe we can use this as well...

Stefan

[James Tainton]

Thanks Here's a link. Nice job but what's up with the red fire extinguisher? ;)
http://missing-lynx.com/gallery/german/stummel_boehler.html

[sbuss]

Artistic licence, maybe.

[Stuke Sowle]

Looks like this kit may need a little TLC after all, but I'm still gonna get one! :)

Great work so far!

[James Tainton]

Just to go back a little- here I have added doors of the engine access area on top. As well the front vision block area and ceiling parts have been glued in place.
Circled on the right is one of those painful raised line parts location indicators.:(
Fortunately this is easily remedied with a little sanding.
http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/fronthoodtop.jpg

[James Tainton]

here you can see I've glued in the one piece side storage bins.
http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/side-storageboxes.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/storageboxes.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/topsidestorage.jpg

[James Tainton]

now the remainder of the parts to the gun are glued in place.
This is the initail assemly in these pics- no clean-up(sanding,ect.)
http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/gun1.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/gun3.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/gun4.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/gun5.jpg

[sbuss]

Hello James,

again one question, as i have seen you already glueing the top of the driver's compartment:

it seems as DML had provided a standard ceiling with two vision blocks in front.

As they made the mistake of providing two seats, while only one was used, are they using the "two vision block"-solution, or is the correct armour plate included in the kit (the small one that was welded on top of the opening of the no longer in use co-driver-seat)?

Stefan

[James Tainton]

Hmmm... well thanks again for pointing that out, as I was ignorant of that feature. However, as you can see in this scan from the AFV Club 251/9 the proper blocked off vision plate is supplied. So I guess I would have see something was up eventually. But thank-you for the clarification. :)

AFV Club instruction sheet- shows correct vision block area.
http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/AFVinstructions.jpg

Dragon instructions... a little shortcut?
http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/DMLvisionblockinstructions.jpg

Now, sbuss, to save me and everyone else out there some time -what other feature of this variation should I watch out for ? ;)

Actually I will be suspending the DML build to concentrate on the AFV one - just to see the correct way one of these 251 are configured and then I will fix up the DML one after that.

Here is also a design flaw in the DML version. The small rectagular piece of armour plating at the front of the gun has the incorrect shape for the "key" that fits at the front of the gun assembly! It should have an angled raised line on the inside rib like on the AFV one,(green), not the square shaped one as in the grey one, which is DML's version. Just look and see the place where it's to fit and the shape of this area. Minor surgurey will fix this but ....?

http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/gunfrontarmor.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/gun2.jpg

(Just to clarify.. in these pics the front armour piece would need to flip up 90 degrees toward the veiwer and then spin 180 horizontal to fit in place.)

[M@ximus]

hey james, nice work

I have a question
In your view which 251/9 is better AFV or DMl's. I myself have just ordered Dml and was wondering was it a good buy.

[sbuss]

James,
two comments from my side, as you had asked for further modifications:

does the ceiling of the two kits have the distinctive cutout that was made for the gun? i can't see this properly on the picture you made of DML's.

do you have a picture of the attachment of the FuSprech (f) on the left wall, next to the foldable seat?

Stefan

[Stuke Sowle]

I am loving this build log! I don't have either kit yet, but by the end of all this I will be one well-informed modeller!! :)

Hmmm, now which one do I want to get?

[James Tainton]

Originally posted by M@ximus@Oct 19 2004, 01:12 PM
hey james, nice work

I have a question
In your view which 251/9 is better AFV or DMl's. I myself have just ordered Dml and was wondering was it a good buy.
I think that so far to me its hard to say weather one is really "better" than the other, as I haven't finished building both. I would have to say the AFV seems more accurate but you get lots of extras with the Dragon one plus many other options. I guess they are both good compared to the older kits out there, but neither is perfect. I think some people will love the otioons and extras that the DML kit gives yoy where as the AFV Club one may have an edge on accuracy-(but costs more)

[James Tainton]

Well I made the mold but was not happy with the sitation as I damaged the plastic floor plating with the knife while trying to cut out the seat pedestal. ;) I asked my local plastic "pusher" about replacement sprues as the floor plate needed to be replaced as well as one seat -the price would be $20.00 dollar CND. I may have to buy the whole 3 in 1 again to make it worth while and then make a full mold of the floorplates. I tried fitting a copy of the AFV floorplate made of resin cast from the mold I made of it, but it's smaller on length slightly compared to the DML one. What a D-R-ag.:(
http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/rtv.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/resinlift.jpg
Another way of doing the replacement floorboard parts was suggested to me is to use foil and to get an impression from the rest of the floor plate.
I guess this one will be on hold for a while. (unless someone has an extra floor plate out there(or a casting) :)

[Sticky]

This is no as bad as it looks. Just make a floor from thin sheet stock, and add some aber treat plate. They make it in differnet sizes and patterns. In fact it make end up looking better.

Good Luck

[actually...]

Originally posted by Sticky@Oct 25 2004, 12:53 AM
This is no as bad as it looks. Just make a floor from thin sheet stock, and add some aber treat plate. They make it in differnet sizes and patterns. In fact it make end up looking better.

Good Luck
I may try using the AFV floor. I did some dry fitting tonite and checked it all out and I may be able to use the AFV floorplating mold I made to redo this floor- I will have to do a little trimming here and there and will have to make casts of the firewall and dashboard from the AFV kit to make it work but hey one step at a time and it'll look great. Not a stock build but good enough for the girls I go out with :)

[James Tainton]

I hate when I do that- (was not logged-in.)^ :angry:

[James Tainton]

Originally posted by sbuss@Oct 20 2004, 12:12 AM
James,
two comments from my side, as you had asked for further modifications:

does the ceiling of the two kits have the distinctive cutout that was made for the gun? i can't see this properly on the picture you made of DML's.

do you have a picture of the attachment of the FuSprech (f) on the left wall, next to the foldable seat?

Stefan
I think these are included with the DML kit- I'll take pix when I can, and post.

[James Tainton]

here's more pics - this time of the upper armour area- this I did the other day before starting the AFV kit- so I'll be interested in seeing how it matches the AFV Club's upper arour.
http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/upprarmor.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/upperarmor2G.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/upperarmor3.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/upperarmor4.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/upperarmor5.jpg

[James Tainton]

I need a clear picture or two of the floor plate arrangement. Anybody? :(

[Finnmodeler]

Hi,
does Part PE set pic or instructions help at all? I've been mesiing with it in my Tamiya 251...

Niko

[sbuss]

James, i found a picture of the real roof, from the vehicle under restauration at Fort Knox.
here is the link. (http://www.armorfortheages.com/251restpage5.htm)

now you can see that Dragon's and AFV's roof are both wrong.

And the floor is still missing as well (although you can see a small part on page 1)

What a pity. :(

Stefan

[James Tainton]

Jeeze S, I don't know- the AFV and DML parts do have that cut out in the plate. I think the AFV top plate has more finesse than the DML but if you are going go for a perfect standard... there are a few other things that are wrong ;)
a couple of pics- maybe I don't understand your point but I see notches... :)
the DML one- I could only take a pic from underneath- I have flipped the real image for comparison.
http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/dmltop.jpg
and the AFV one
http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/afvtop1.jpg

[James Tainton]

Originally posted by Finnmodeler@Oct 27 2004, 12:44 AM
Hi,
does Part PE set pic or instructions help at all? I've been mesiing with it in my Tamiya 251...

Niko
hey maybe it will help -post a 800 pixel scan of it ;)

[M@ximus]

Hello panzer fuast,
I have just recieved my DML 251/9 kit in the mail. But I have to say that some times the DML instructions can be confuessing. For instence on step 7 for the 251/9, where exactly do the parts R3, R19, and R15 go and was wondering if u have a photo of it.

and thanks

[James Tainton]

Originally posted by M@ximus@Oct 27 2004, 02:28 PM
Hello panzer fuast,
I have just recieved my DML 251/9 kit in the mail. But I have to say that some times the DML instructions can be confuessing. For instence on step 7 for the 251/9, where exactly do the parts R3, R19, and R15 go and was wondering if u have a photo of it.

and thanks
Those are the radio bits.- Just take your time with the kit. And be aware -if you want to do the /9 version there are some issues as you can see in my previous posts. ;)

[M@ximus]

Well I kinda have been looking at this topic ever since you started and and I must say, you are doing a very good job. Sorry about the floor plate though. You ever think of just taking a floor plate from tamiya's 251/ kits? or are thier floor plates wrong too? I am building mine basicly out of the box except for the gun sheild and small details and they are going to be photo etched parts I hope. Still havn't decided

well good luck on the model James.

[sbuss]

Regarding the roof and the respective cutout: Maybe it's just me getting old and blind. From what i could see from previous pictures i guesstimated that the DML one would have a cutout that is shaped completely wrong. Now i can see that at least the shape is more or less correct.

My mistake

But you seem to have been drilling holes into the roof (and surely not without a reason ;) )

As a comparison i have included a picture of my build, which is a conversion of the Tamiya /9-kit using a kit by MR-Modellbau.
http://www.arcor.de/palb/alben/85/927585/1024_3738396364303736.jpg
The roof is a bit simple on top, but from beneath it looks perfect to me (especially as the co-drivers visor is welded shut :) ) It's a pity i can only offer a low-quality picture of that...
http://www.arcor.de/palb/alben/85/927585/1024_6663376435666631.jpg

[James Tainton]

Jeeze that looks pretty cool- how long have you been doing that one? It's nice to see some pictures of your work. You ought to show more ;)

I have a question? How close do you think the 251 Kanonenwagen and the 250 Stummel upper armour is. I have the Royal Model set for Dragon's Sd.Kfz.250/8 Neu 7.5cm KwK37(L/24)"Stummel"
http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/royal.jpg
Do you think the front seats are the same as well.

[sbuss]

James,

as far as i know the conversion kits to change a 251/1 into a 251/9 späte Ausf. and 250/1 into 250/8 were the same.


I will have a look into my Schützenpanzer-book from Ryton this evening.

I know that the Osprey-book that is due to be published on Modelling the 251 Series contains a model done by Bob Oehler using DML's parts of a 250/8 for his 251/9 spät. So this should be possible.

Stefan

[James Tainton]

Actually that sprue tree from the DML 250 is included with 251 kit. Curiously some of the armour plate is not used and replaced with new front and bottom pieces.?
http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/stummelinstructions.jpg

[James Tainton]

some comparison pictures from the three manufactures;AFV Club, Tamiya, and Dragon
an overall shot
http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/wheelcomparisonoverallshot.jpg

front wheel
http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/frontwheel.jpg

drive wheels
http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/drivewheels.jpg

wheel 1.
http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/wheel1.jpg

wheel 2.
http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/wheel2.jpg

wheel 3.
http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/wheel3.jpg

wheel 4.
http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/wheel4..jpg

[James Tainton]

Re: Here are some comparison pictures. October 27 2004, 5:33 PM

"Dimitri de Paepe
but the fittig of the upper armor is terrible. At first it seemed a little filling would do the trick as the part is about 1,5 mm too short. But the angles at the backdoor are also incorrect, so I decided to just scratch the upper armor altogether. In short, I can't wait to try to one of those dragon halftracks."

(quotes from Missing Lynx post here http://www.network54.com/Forum/thread?foru...geid=1098891265 (http://www.network54.com/Forum/thread?forumid=47207&messageid=1098891265) )

The AFV upper and lower armour shells do need concentrated effort and much dry fitting. It is a somewhat challenging fit but it does work as can be seen in this picture of one I'm building right now. This is only a dry fit but as you can see the legnths are not that bad- maybe a little sanding to level the end surfaces a tiny fraction but that's modelling ...no. The front needs some plastic strip on the top shell to fill a tiny .5 (if that) gap. Easy.
backend
http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/afvbackendjoint.jpg

front end
http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/AFVfrontgap.jpg

as for the angles of the back here is a comparison shot of the DML and the AFV... not much differance.
here in this comparison shot which includes a line drawing from the Ryton book on Schützenpanzer.It appears to me the AFV one is closer in comparison.

http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/rearedncomparision.jpg

[James Tainton]

"Ian Stapley
I think overall, AFV Club is considered the best, though Dragon wins out in certain areas of detail like the running gear and Tamiya has the best representation of the front steering assembly. The inclusion of optional parts in the Dragon kit extends its versatility without the need for AM accessories, or buying variations on a theme (A great idea that used to be commonplace back in the 1970s and 80s and I daresay formed the basis of many a spare parts cache).

If money is no object, I think an absolute corking 251 could be made from the three kits."


See above for running gear detail- make you own decision on that
As for Tamiya having the best steering assembly, in some ways this is true - (there is a major fit issue with the leaf spring brackets on the AFV kit
http://www.planetarmor.com/forums/index.ph...=15&#entry2703) (http://www.planetarmor.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=537&st=15&#entry2703))
However niether the DML or the Tamiya have steering linkage parts.There is no way for the steering wheel to turn the wheels.
As for the 3in one concept. It would work except for front seats for the /9 are different than the /1's. There should only be one seat for the driver on the Kannenwagen version- DML has two pedestals on the 3-1 floor plate part.(The instructions show to use two seat-which is wrong) Also the vision port on the passenger side at the front is indicated as being like the drivers side one. However the right side one was with a flat piece of metal in the real one. This is correctly indicated on the AFV version. AFV also has the proper drivers' seat without passenger seat to his right. Tamiya has the right front seat arrangement but it has the wrong passenger side vision block.

[James Tainton]

Re: Here are some comparison pictures. October 27 2004, 8:03 PM

"David Nickels
I have built all three kits. Honestly, for its age the Tamiya kit builds the best and in some ways has superior detail in a couple areas. The Tamiya front hub caps are the best IMOH of the three 251 kits, and the inner road wheels are good. AFV CLub's outer roadwheels may be a bit nicer. Tamiya's front suspension is super simplistic. AFV Clubs is well detailed but not posable. Dragons is ok and posable. I like the Dragon kit overall the best. AFV Club's kit has poor fit and uses a poor plastic. The Dragon kit has the best detail in the troop compartment, especially the seats, seperate seat frames, and lower lockers. Fit inside is much better than in the AFV kit also. Tamiya's interior has the poorest level of detail but the dash board is the best as far as the instrumentation details."


I have not built all three, although I am in the process of building the AFV Club Sd.Kfz.251/9 Ausf.D and the /9 Kannenwagen of the 3 in 1 DML kit. I do have the Tamiya /9 and will start that one now as well.
So you may be right about Tamiya being the best to build (as in fit?) but as for the DML over the AFV.....hmmm you may be right but maybe not. I guess it depends on what you are looking for.
As for the turning of the front wheels- this may be an issue for diorama builders but for someone wanting to just have an example of the vehicle on their shelf, I don't think this is as important as some of the incorrect issues that I've found in the DML 251/9 I'm doing. Dragon's interior is wrong in several areas.
Besides the passenger seat in the front being included which is wrong and the right vision block at the front,
DML instruction sheet
http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/DMLvisionblockinstructions.jpg
http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/dragon-instructions.jpg
AFV instructions
http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/AFVinstructions.jpg

Dragon also seems to require the radio in the front to be glued as in the 251/1, even though the correct side mounted radio is included to be attached half way down the drivers'side.
Another item that is lacking in the DML version is the gas and brake pedals- these are rudimenty at best on the DML version. The transmission hump seems a little miniscule compared to the real item and AFV's version. The dash board in the DML version also seems to be totally simplified where as the AFV version has the proper look to the gauges. The Tamiya item has the bar underneath molded on.I prefer to have this item seperate.

http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/dashboard2.jpg
I feel the AFV front seats portray a more authentic look than do the simpler DML ones.

http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/afvseat.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/dmlseat.jpg

as for the AFV plastic- it is softer that the DML plastic but I don't mind it- The DML plastic is brittle but its okay as well.

[James Tainton]

couple of other shots of the dashboards

AFV Club
http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/AFV251/dashboardpaint.jpg

Dragon
http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/AFV251/dmldash1.jpg

I am thinking of using the Friulmodel metal tracks (Alt-61) for the AFV 251. These have a different shoe that the one included with the kit (final pattern). As this is a late version of the 251/9 Ausf.D I think it would be okay. I have insufficient data to know this for sure- anybody have any info that would preclude me from using these on this 251?

http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/AFV251/fruiltrack1.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/AFV251/fruiltrack2.jpg

[Paul Olin]

Hello James,
Fruil's ATL 61 will work fine for your 251/9 Late. The 251 on the boxtop for the Fruils is a vehicle on the Eastern Front in the Summer of 1944 if I remember correctly. I also noticed you were talking about the upper armor for the gun assembly whether 250/8 will work. They are the same armor. Another area I notice a lot of people getting caught up with. The radio operator's seat. The armor and gun for the "Late" 251/9 was designed to bolted onto a standard Sdkfz 251. In fact there is a film floating around that showed footage of a Sdkfz 251/9 "Late" with the upper armor in a single color, while the remainder of the vehicle was camoflaged. Makes me think it was one reconfigured as a Sdkfz 251/9. With that in mind there would be a radio operator seat. The only reason there wasn't one in the "Early" version is because the actual mounting point for the gun made it impossible to mount a seat. The "Late" is a all together different story. I think vehicles produced as "Lates" most likely didn't have seat installed as the pictures early in this thread show, however retrofits would be a different story. I hope this helps, keep us posted on this project I really enjoy watching the progress you make.
Sincerely,
Paul

[James Tainton]

Originally posted by Paul Olin@Oct 28 2004, 02:03 PM
Hello James,
Fruil's ATL 61 will work fine for your 251/9 Late. The 251 on the boxtop for the Fruils is a vehicle on the Eastern Front in the Summer of 1944 if I remember correctly. I also noticed you were talking about the upper armor for the gun assembly whether 250/8 will work. They are the same armor. Another area I notice a lot of people getting caught up with. The radio operator's seat. The armor and gun for the "Late" 251/9 was designed to bolted onto a standard Sdkfz 251. In fact there is a film floating around that showed footage of a Sdkfz 251/9 "Late" with the upper armor in a single color, while the remainder of the vehicle was camoflaged. Makes me think it was one reconfigured as a Sdkfz 251/9. With that in mind there would be a radio operator seat. The only reason there wasn't one in the "Early" version is because the actual mounting point for the gun made it impossible to mount a seat. The "Late" is a all together different story. I think vehicles produced as "Lates" most likely didn't have seat installed as the pictures early in this thread show, however retrofits would be a different story. I hope this helps, keep us posted on this project I really enjoy watching the progress you make.
Sincerely,
Paul
Thanks for the info- as for the box top of the Friul- I wanted to include it here but needed to go out but here it is now
http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/AFV251/friul.jpg
As for the radio operators seat- this info you've put forth really confuses the issue... I am building the AFV Club version of the late Kanonenwagen 251/9 and it only includes the drivers seat. So I wonder if there is any photographic and/or other documental proof that there was a radio operators seat. See another problem with that is wasn't the radio moved to the side onto the wall behind the driver's seat. I mean why would you need a seat for the radio seat at the front if the radio was on the side behind the driver. Anyone have any diffinitive proof one way or another- I shure would hate to be telling people the DML kit is wrong if it isn't sbusss- what do you say? :)

[sbuss]

James, i have only seen pictures with the radio being moved next to the ammo storage on the left side. The radio-ops vision cover received a welded plate.

So, with no way to look outside and no use, why should a guy sit there?

The point made above may be valid that vehicles converted "in the field" may have had two seats earlier. But, i strongly think that the right handed seat was removed during the conversion anyway to get extra space for the crew.

The radio operator was seated on a movable wooden seat in the middle of the left sided (and renamed "gunner", methinks)

It's a pity that only one späte Ausf. survived.

Stefan

[Finnmodeler]

Hi,
can anyone confirm following: (Sorry James, I had to "borrow" one of your pics. Hope you don't mind :o )
http://www.kitpic.com/is.php?i=5558&img=251_back.jpg
First of all, I have seen only few pics, original and restored vehicles, from behind having open rear doors. All of them have rounded rear opening corners.
All the KITS, AFV, DML and Tamiya have non-rounded corners. It is quite impossible to correct if this really is a mistake.
I want to know if there were two types of openings. Can anyone come up with a pic to help in this matter?


Just wondering,

Niko

[Finnmodeler]

Originally posted by panzerfaust@Oct 27 2004, 01:21 PM
hey maybe it will help -post a 800 pixel scan of it ;)
Hi,
here is the instructions. Sorry for delay. I don't know if these actually help at all:O Anyway, as promised...

http://www.kitpic.com/is.php?i=5591&img=251_floors_1.jpg

http://www.kitpic.com/is.php?i=5592&img=251_floors_2.jpg

Cheers,
Niko

[James Tainton]

Originally posted by Finnmodeler@Nov 4 2004, 02:21 AM

All the KITS, AFV, DML and Tamiya have non-rounded corners. It is quite impossible to correct if this really is a mistake.
I want to know if there were two types of openings. Can anyone come up with a pic to help in this matter?


Just wondering,

Niko
The AFV 251/9 Ausf.D has rounded corners (although a titch smaller in diameter than the real one?)- you are incorrect in including AFV's rear entrance with the other two .
http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/AFV251/afv-backentrancecornerpictu.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/AFV251/afvbackentrance2.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/AFV251/afvrearcompartmentcompariso.jpg
BTW the above photo is from an excellent little photo book I picked up today. Real great value for the money!
http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/AFV251/251book.jpg

[Finnmodeler]

Hi,
you are definately correct! Shame on me:) Thanks for the clarification.
That's the book I've been looking for! James, wanna trade to N&B 251/9?;)

Br,
Niko

[James Tainton]

Hey Finn is there any good shots of the radio arrangement in that N&B book?
Well I have some news I finally got some replacement parts from a guy at Dragon that I have been communicating with in regards to doing some boxart for them- I did do one with promises to do more but we'll see. ;)
Anyways it was nice that I got the replacement sprues, but there was an added bonus - the new sprue of road wheels that is going to be available in future 251 kits. I must say from a quick look it's a vast improvement.
http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/replacement-sprue1.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/wheelsprue2.jpg

[James Tainton]

First I cut out the extra radio ops seat ped.
then took some of the resin cast I made of the floor plate and glued it in. _ Not totally perfect but but good enough for the girls I go out with. :)
http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/newfloorboard.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/cutoutandresin.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/251/resininplace.jpg

[sbuss]

James,

i envy you for the roadwheels you received... Lucky Guy!

To answer the question on the radio shots in Nuts & Bolts: I think the pictures are not too helpful. You can see the wiring clearly and the holding frame, as the radio was dismounted when the pictures where taken, but the pictures' quality is quite low.

Stefan

[James Tainton]

don't envy me too much - the guy only sent me enough for one side so really they are of no use. :lol:
As for the radio photos- it is the frame, (and wiring)I am interested in- maybe I can scratch something? ;)

[sbuss]

ok, scans will follow tomorrow (i hope).

Here is another question: you have posted pictures of the gun in it's place. From what i can make out, the gun shields (the small ones at the side of the gun) seem to be too far forward (or the gun is sitting too far in front).

From what i can make out from the pictures in Nuts&Bolts, the small protruding ribs actually sit behind the large armour plates, not in front of them.

(i hope this is understandable :( )

Stefan

[James Tainton]

I think I understand your ?- I still have one shield on the front to put in place-maybe you are confused with that one not being in the photo? Both the DML and AFV instructions shows the upper armour around the cab intersect between the two small shields, as in my gun mounted on this kit.
http://members.shaw.ca/pantherd/AFV251/gunshieldbuss.jpg

[sbuss]

James, we are talking about the same thing. The rib you have pointed out shows exactly the one i meant.
please have a look at this picture (i am sure you know it as it is quite well known). The rib sits behind the plate, but that may come from the gun pointing to the right side maybe, which may not be too obvious?

http://www.arcor.de/palb/alben/85/927585/1024_6438366335366636.jpg
and please compare to the drawing in the second picture. What's your opinion?
http://www.arcor.de/palb/alben/85/927585/1024_6364313363333664.jpg

stefan

[Finnmodeler]

Originally posted by panzerfaust@Nov 8 2004, 08:24 PM
Hey Finn is there any good shots of the radio arrangement in that N&B book?
...
Anyways it was nice that I got the replacement sprues, but there was an added bonus - the new sprue of road wheels that is going to be available in future 251 kits. I must say from a quick look it's a vast improvement.

hi,
as Stefan already pointed, there isn't many helpful pics in N&B regarding radio installation.
Are new wheels comparable to AFV's wheels? I am building AFV's 3-ton and it's wheels are superb compared to Tamiya or DML, imho at least:)
How does Aber radio set go together? I have their radio set and instructions strangely suggest to put one of the transparent parts on top of radio.(I'll have to send a scan to make it clearer:))

[James Tainton]

Well I managed to get going on this one now as well,(finally).
first job was to thin down the kit's dashboard as I have decided to use the Aber 250 acetate dials for some added detailing.
http://members.shaw.ca/nashorn/PA/DML/dashthinned.jpg

next I had to hollow out the dial face areas so the acetate could show through. Aslo filled in the two holes meant to locate the gasmask container.
http://members.shaw.ca/nashorn/PA/DML/dashthinned2.jpg

I have added several of the interior bits.-thinking to go stock... didn't last long... :lol:
http://members.shaw.ca/nashorn/PA/DML/dml2.jpg

used the two kit fire extingushers
http://members.shaw.ca/nashorn/PA/DML/backdoor.jpg

[James Tainton]

I'm goint to use the early version of the bench seating at the back. This is the storage box w/ frame mounted on top.
http://members.shaw.ca/nashorn/PA/DML/seat.jpg

Well the ammo case is not very good- besides the thick walls of the item there are four obvious and hard to get at pin marks . So... that starts a scratch build frenzy :o
http://members.shaw.ca/nashorn/PA/DML/ammocase.jpg

the stoage boxes don't have the side mounting flap that appears to me to be in the referances I have so I used Evergreen strip to imply that detail.
http://members.shaw.ca/nashorn/PA/DML/sidebits.jpg

I used some Evergreen plastic to make the ammo box this time instead of metal, just to try something different.
http://members.shaw.ca/nashorn/PA/DML/ammocasescratch1.jpg

[James Tainton]

so the ammo case gets the holding bits from the kit's part. There is some trimming and sanding to do on the walls yet.
http://members.shaw.ca/nashorn/PA/DML/ammocasescratch2.jpg

well I just could not deal with the thickness of the walls on the kit's stoage bins so after the success of the ammo case I was inspired to have a go at getting some that would be more to scale. :)
First I ripped out the old ones...
http://members.shaw.ca/nashorn/PA/DML/rippedoutstorage.jpg

and here are the new ones installed. I used metal for the seat pad mounting plates and glued in the seat mount.
http://members.shaw.ca/nashorn/PA/DML/scratchedstorageboxes.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/nashorn/PA/DML/scratchedstorageboxes2.jpg

I have decided to use real wood for my radio operators seat on this one. The wood came from stir sticks from Starbucks® whick I sanded very thin. this was all cut using my new Chopper II bought on the weekend, and then all this was glued with cartpenters glue. The mounting brackets are cut from brass sheet and the mounting plates on the wood seat sides is Evergreen plastic cut to shape.
http://members.shaw.ca/nashorn/PA/DML/radioseatwood.jpg

after some thought I decided to go with the clunky kit spare vision blocks and cases.
http://members.shaw.ca/nashorn/PA/DML/visionblockinstalled.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/nashorn/PA/DML/visionblock2.jpg

[James Tainton]

primed out the interior and firewall ect. with flat black (Model Master)
http://members.shaw.ca/nashorn/PA/DML/dmlfbprime.jpg

[James Tainton]

and now the interiour is given a quick base coat as well as the firewall/dashboard.
http://members.shaw.ca/nashorn/PA/DML/basedinterior.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/nashorn/PA/DML/dashbasedout.jpg

now I do the Aber dial acetate by painting red and green on the back, followed with white on top. (next time I will just airbrush Tamiya flat- this is pretty messy lookin') #5. shows how it looks on the front.

http://members.shaw.ca/nashorn/PA/DML/dials.jpg

[James Tainton]

Well, as for finishing the scratched wood seat I wanted to try using a technique we use in the movies to age down new lumber that has been used to build some set or whatever. What it consists of is basically diissolving into solution iron sulfate particles,(used for gardening) with hot H2O. Then you apply this to the wood. It usually interacts with the tannins
( http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book...annins&x=8&y=13 (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=tannins&x=8&y=13) )
found in the wood to produce a very realistic grey/old weathered look to the wood.
http://members.shaw.ca/achtungpanzer/iron1.jpg
http://members.shaw.ca/achtungpanzer/iron2.jpg
http://members.shaw.ca/achtungpanzer/iron3.jpg
http://members.shaw.ca/achtungpanzer/iron4.jpg
http://members.shaw.ca/achtungpanzer/iron5.jpg
http://members.shaw.ca/achtungpanzer/iron6.jpg



The stir stick wood did turn a tiny bit but I will have to try another technique involving tea,vinagar, and steel wool as I think the stirstick wood is too refined and lacks these tannins.

As for the texture on the face of the wood... it is such tiny piece that wire brushing is not possible :)
There are so many things that show up in digital photography that you just don't see with your eyes. I did not do anything to this wood except thin it down with sandpaper.

[James Tainton]

Staining Wood With Tea & Vinegar

Adapted from "The Natural Paint Book," by Lynn Edwards and Julia Lawless (Rodale Organic Living Books, 2002).

Plant dyes have a translucent quality because light can pass through the molecules of color (whereas it is reflected off the grains of a natural pigment). Tannins are naturally present in woods like oak, but pale woods like pine can be darkened by having tannins added to them in the form of strong black tea.

Here is an interesting trick to help the tannins react with the wood to produce a rich, dark color:

Iron acetate, when applied to the wood, reacts with tannins.

This recipe is open to a lot of experimentation. The results can be unpredictable, so conduct some trials first before applying either of the two stains to your woodwork.

INGREDIENTS
To add tannins:
2 1/4 cups water
1/3 cup Indian tea leaves

For iron acetate:
Large ball of fine steel wool
Malt Vinegar

Method
For the tannin mixture, boil the water and add it to the tea leaves. Let the tea steep for an hour or two, then strain it into a bowl.

For the iron acetate mixture, place the steel wool in a jar and cover it with the malt vinegar. Screw the lid on and leave it overnight. The next day, strain the mixture through a colander or strainer lined with muslin or cheesecloth to remove all the steel wool. (For a more powerful iron acetate solution, use more steel wool, or let it soak longer.)

Application
Apply the tannin mixture to the wood with a medium paintbrush or lint-free cloth. Leave it for a few minutes before wiping off any excess with a lint-free cloth. Some pale woods will be colored by this process alone. Let it dry.

Now apply the iron acetate solution to the wood with a medium paintbrush or lint-free cloth. The wood should start to darken immediately and can continue to darken for up to half an hour.

Let the wood dry thoroughly before sanding it lightly. You can then apply an oil or wax finish.

Wash brushes and tools in warm, soapy water.

[James Tainton]

a photo collage which shows the process more or less decribed in the instructions above.
http://members.shaw.ca/nashorn/PA/DML/woodseat.jpg

[serpico]

James,

Terriffic ideas for aging wood...and I always thought you just painted and sanded, etc. However, what the hell is malted vinegar? Could you just use balsamic vinegar?

That's one nice looking halftrack...can't wait to see it completed!

Serpico

[James Tainton]

I used regular white vinigar and it seemed to do the trick- maybe if you have the time do some experimenting..
here is a couple of pics- finally able to get the Aber dash acetate glued in the washed and matte coated dash board. (there is more work to do here however...) -it was then glued in place. Gotta get this one done...
http://members.shaw.ca/nashorn/PA/DML/dashdone.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/nashorn/PA/DML/dashabove.jpg

[James Tainton]

did a bit on the DML 251/9 today,
I was fixing up some of the joints were the upper armour and the side armour meet and was sanding/filing the joints nice. Then I looked at the inside were the upper armour joins the side armour and this major shelf that is there for plastic model building purposes but not there in real life, I decided to sand that flat, then I thought and got rid of the mounting brackets thinking I could make more authentic ones so... in the end I decided to start from scratch as I had an extra one that had come with some of those previous replacement parts I got. Trouble was I only had the one gun mount that goes on the top so that had to be redone as it was glued on the hull it was on really good. Rip and tear. In any case I think I manage to get it close enough and I plan now to use the after-market set I got years ago for the DML 250/8 Stummel from Royal Models as a template to redo the upper armour plate with some brass sheet.
http://members.shaw.ca/panzerii/DML/3in1part3/toparmour.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/panzerii/DML/3in1part3/toparmour3.jpg

[James Tainton]

managed to actually make some decent copies of the Royal Model upper armour bits.
http://members.shaw.ca/panzerii/DML/3in1part3/upperarmour2.jpg

[James Tainton]

Fault with Dragon's 251/D ?
January 31 2005 at 10:23 PM Peter Bleasdale (no login)
from IP address 202.139.104.145
Hi Guys,

Let me begin by saying that I have been on leave for the past month, and so I apologise if this topic has been discussed.

I'm halfway through Dragon's 251/22 D and I've got a problem.

If you dry fit the two side bin/fenders to the top hull, the front and rear joint lines don't seem to line up.

For clarification I'll try and explain it another way:- On 251/D's, there is a join line that runs all the way around the vehicle just behind the drivers station (inside the vehicle, there were two flanges that bol together)this visible join line runs down the sides of the top hull and down the side bins/fenders. Now if you dry fit the fenders and upper hull and line up the join line, you get a gap at the front where the fenders and top hull meet.

I think the only way to fix it would be to fill the join line on the side bins and rescribe it.

Has anyone else discovered this problem?

Incidentally, Tamiya's 251/D did not have a recessed panel line, but instead they represented it as a raised, welded joint!

I hope some one can shed some lite.

Thanks

Peter


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Author Reply
james tainton
(Login jtainton)
24.85.247.39
If I understand your problem correctly... January 31 2005, 11:36 PM

all I can say is that this problem of the upper hull and lower hull section joint line not lining up does not exist on my model. So I'm not sure if you may have done something along the way differently than I.?
http://members.shaw.ca/panzeriv/jointline.jpg

Respond to this message
Peter Bleasdale
(no login)
202.139.104.145
251/D January 31 2005, 11:43 PM

Thanks James for the response and photo.

Doesn't your photo show what I'm talking about? See the gap between the upper hull and side bins, directly above where the front drive sprocket will go? if you look at pictures of real vehicles, there is no gap there. Now if you slide the side bins forward, to reduce the gap, the join lines will no longer line up.

I hope you get my drift.

Peter


Respond to this message
james tainton
(Login jtainton)
24.85.247.39
This picture is more perpendicular February 1 2005, 12:22 AM

the "gap" on the model is a consistent distance along the join of the upper and lower hulls.
This is a pic of the real item
http://members.shaw.ca/panzeriv/realsidebin251.jpg

and the kit
http://members.shaw.ca/panzeriv/joint2512.jpg
Maybe it's one of those things that should not be worried about, as there are other issues with dimensions and details that if all were to be fastidiously corrected to mirror the larger real vehicle- well the model would take a loooong time to complete Best just let it go....*shugging shoulders*


Respond to this message
Peter Bleasdale
(no login)
202.139.104.145
that gap February 1 2005, 12:53 AM

Your photo of a real vehicle does indeed show a slight gap. To my eyes, your photo of the model shows the gap a bit bigger than it should be (not your fault). I'll check again tonight - I thought the gap running along the top edge of my side bins was almost non existant, but the gap was there at the front.


Respond to this message
Peter Bleasdale
(no login)
202.139.104.145
that gap again February 1 2005, 2:17 AM

sorry to harp on this, but I dont think there should be a gap there at all. I was thinking about this some more and with the help of a couple of my modelling brethren, it was concluded that the "gap" that can be seen in the photo of the original that James kindly posted is not a gap at all. Instead, it is a shadow caused by the overhang of the upper plate. Also, that row of rivets along the top edge of the side bins secure the side bins to the upper hull ie they are bolted together.

Sorry James, but looking at all the reference pics I have, there should be a much tighter fit.

Peter


Respond to this message
james tainton
(Login jtainton)
24.85.247.39
Re: that gap again February 1 2005, 2:36 AM

I just glued the bins in place as DML designed them to be. Maybe you are right. But you start making adjustments here and there - it's going to be ... oh well Good luck. Let me know how it works out


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james tainton
(Login jtainton)
24.85.247.39
You know you are right. February 1 2005, 3:25 AM

I have very limited knowledge of the 251- I have only built the old Tamiya 251 Ausf C years ago and then the AFV Club and this Dragon one- so I have to thank you for "filling in some gaps" of my knowledge;)
It's way past my bed time. But I think if you just glue a shiv to fill that gap - that could be a solution- I can't get into the details now as I must sleep to get up for work in 6 hours.
But here is another pic
http://members.shaw.ca/panzeriv/251bin.jpg

and I will try to discuss this maybe over here
http://www.planetarmor.com/forums/index.ph...topic=520&st=75 (http://www.planetarmor.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=520&st=75)
more as the page hereat ML will have scolled down out of site by tomorrow evening.
but thanks again for clarifying that for me.


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Julio Paz
(no login)
67.40.103.204
Re: You know you are right. February 1 2005, 8:33 AM

In fairness to Dragon's Sdkfz-251 I would like to point out that apparently AFVCLUB and certainly Tamiya models also have this fitting problem.
I have a sequence of images that shows how my results to fixing the problem on my old Tamiya kit turned out. This was a "Pre-net project" ..matter of fact it goes back 15 years when the kit first came out. I don't have pictures of my work at the time but my solution to the problem which in terms would be the same for the two newer kits by DML and AFVclub was to build and finish the interior and then glue the top hull to the lower section and then add the storage bins not before carving and triming the back of them until the desired effect and fit was achived {The sligth overhang)...these new digital images tend to overblow some of the details but in plain sight my old Tamiya kit turned out pretty good.
As far as who makes the best Sdkfz-251..boy, that's a tought one..

a- Tamiya has good fit and easy to build but it lacks tons of details but those can be added with a little work and borrowing from Dragon's leftovers.

b- AFVclub its a big improvement but has some issues with its upper hull and a few other little annoyances.

c- Dragon's has some issues with its interior and those dammed open storage bins.
I'm sure most of us would be able to come out with a decent Sdkfz-251 even if we decided to do a entirely new kit from all 3

http://albums.photo.epson.com/j/AlbumIndex...5&a=31621662&f= (http://albums.photo.epson.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=4001145&a=31621662&f=)

if having problems..go to:

1- http://photo.epson.com/index.html
2- select "visit albums"
3- log in with my e-mail "paxbellum@hotmail.com" and select "hanomag folder.



From a post at Missing Links
http://www.network54.com/Forum/thread?foru...geid=1107228209 (http://www.network54.com/Forum/thread?forumid=47207&messageid=1107228209)