D-Day Sherman's

[TreadHead]

Howdy All,

Mighty fine sight ya have Gordy! :) BTW, I really like your name, I guess because my real name is Gordon as well.
To my question.

I'm building a D-Day Sherman, and have been advised to use the Tamiya M4 Sherman, 'Early Production' kit # 190. My plan is to use the Italeri USMC M4 Sherman kit # 6389 wading trunks on the Tammy kit to depict an approx. D+1 Sherman on the beach at Normandy driving past a recently defunct German bunker.
First, would the Tammy kit be the best choice for this. And, second, would the mating of the Italeri 'trunks' work out O.K.?

TIA,

Tread.

[Halfyank]

Tread, what are you referring to as "trunks?" You don't mean the things that kind of look like stacks sticking up over the engine covers are you? Were they used on the Shermans at D day? I thought the DD Shermans on D day used the collapsible screen around the hull that allowed them to float.

[war_machine]

There were some M4s with the deep wading trunks fitted used on D-Day, as shown in a few of the surviving pictures. For tanks landing in the days immediately following, there were still quite a few that had the trunks fitted. I've seen pictures of 2nd AD tanks so equipped.
As for the kits, I don't know if the Italeri trunks would fit the Tamiya M4 since the trunks are supposed to be for an M4A2/3, which had a different hull engine deck than the M4. I haven't seen the Italeri kit, so I don't know for certain, but that is one point to keep in mind.
Hope this helps! :thumb:

[ShermiesRule]

Treadhead, I looked at the same swap (probably for the same Campaign) but it won't work. The vent grille on the M4A2/A3 for the mid-hull stack has a completely different mount. I believe it's the same reason the stacks won't fit the Italeri M4A1 which, except for the large driver's hatches, is much better fit for a D-Day Sherman than the M4A3. Not that it can't be done if you scratch the mounts, but it won't be a drop in fit

[FusMR]

Hi guys,
I think we are talking about two different kind of vehicle here. The DD Sherman stand for Duplex Drive Sherman and it's the one with the screen all around the vehicle. The wading kit is fixed on standard Sherman. :)
On the other hand, i have the DD Sherman with lowered screen kit from Resicast on the shelf waiting his turn to be built.....

[ShermiesRule]

As I understand it, the first wave of armor was supposed to be DD tanks (with the propellers and raised screens) because they supposedly can "swim" in fron whatever distance they disembarked. Due to the rough seas most of them foundered and swamped. The later waves were loaded with wader trunks Shermies because, in theory, they could get closer to the beaches, roll of the ramp into medium to shallow water and drive along the bottom only needing to keep water out of the engine and exhaust.

[yancy]

Tread-

I have been working a D-Day dio for quite some time and maybe have your solution. I purchased the Tamiya kit and the Deep Wading Kit from The Tank Workshop. You can purchase the Wading Kit from VLS.

Also, Jonathan Gawene published a great book titled, "Spearheading D-Day." This informative title gives a good break out of what tanks reached the beach that day.

You can build the dio to represent one of the following tank units: 741st, 743rd, or the 70th.

Yancy

[greatbrit]

in terms of US tanks, the units that reached the beaches have been stated,

however the british had more success landing tanks on D-Day, but its far less documented. many RMASG centaurs and sherman DDs were landed, and later in the day and the following days more shermans and cromwells with wading trunks were landed.

cheers

joe

[TreadHead]

Howdy Fellas,

Many thx for the replies so far, the intel is appreciated.

And (just for the record), I am talking about the D-DAY Sherman, and not the D.D. (Duplex Drive) Sherman.

I have already begun tackling the switch-fit, and as ShermiesRule has already stated the 'Intake' stack is the one requiring a wee bit more work regarding the interface between the stack itself, and the engine deck. But it doesn't really require THAT much work.....
The exhaust stack is quite a bit easier.
Now, after all that work, I'm thinking about only including the wading trunk 'roots', and not the complete stack (the curved upper sections are why I wanted to use the Italeri pieces in the first place). But then, It would be missing the neat 'quick-release' cable system the invented specifically for these tanks, and that would subtract a nice little 'character' item........oh, what to do. ;-)

Tread.

[ShermiesRule]

Tread I would like to see the mods you made for the M4 Early. Any pics to be posted either here or Armorama?

[general zod]

Tread,I e-maild 3 pics to ya today Hopefully they are of help

[TreadHead]

Howdy 'Zod,

Yes sir (as I told you off-site) I did get them, and THANKS! As I told you that last shot (the off-loading one) is really the best angle I've seen. My hope is that that shot is clear enough to make out some detail.

Thanks again pard. ;-)

to Shermie's: Unfortunately the only digital camera I own is a 'construction' camera, and it is quite useless at close-ups. Once I get the piece looking better I will indeed try to take some pics.

Tread.

Oh...here's a shot (albiet a grainy one) of a nice D-Day Sherm doing some shallow water wading.
(let's see if this works (this is the first time posting pics here at planetarmor)

http://www.armorama.com/modules/photopost/data/500/102ShermDDay83126.jpg

Hey!...it worked! :-)

And believe it or not fellas (maybe one of you guys has better photo-editing software or something), the Sherman in the picture SURE looks like an M4A1 cast hull with waders!!!!!! ;-) ;-) (there are about seven or eight guys huddled on the leeward side of the tank so the hull detail is hard to make out).

Can anybody (I'm ASSUMING there's some Shermanaholic's here ;-) ) make out the detail for sure?

And, you'll also note (this is a painter's detail), that the number "10" is painted on both the wading stack, as well as the wading root.

[ShermiesRule]

Tread or anyone else. I've been working on my USMC M4A3 wader for a PTO. I was wondering how much crap the crew would have loaded on the tank. If the tank had to wade in then wouldn't weight and balance be a problem? I'm not sure I've seen PTO tanks as packed as ETO tanks probably because they keep getting reloaded into transports to go to another island. While the Marine tanks use more unique supplemental armor I'm not sure I see as much crew gear.

[TreadHead]

Howdy Alan,

A good question. And I was hoping someone with more Sherman knowledge might lend an opinion on the subject. (hint...hint)

My immediate thought regarding exterior (we are talking exterior stowage, right?) stowage is that there initially wouldn't be that much. That is of course if the crew didn't want it to get soaking wet, or even possibly swept away by the strong tidal forces. Besides that, on the initial assault on the beachhead, one would think 'Pack Light'....wouldn't one?
The tank crews would be able to pick up their sea bags and stowage after the assault, and then pack them for the longer journey inland......IMHO, of course.

Tread.

[amherbert]

Hi

I'm not sure how much help this is, but the latest Armes et Militaria Hors Series covers Allied Armor in Normandy (it's issue #52). I got it last week in Montreal, and it's full of photos of armor being loaded up prior to the landings, exercise, and then shots after D-Day +1.

The Shermans look very clean prior to loading, but it's clear that extra armor plate has been welded on the dry stowage Shermans, with no repainting! The color artwork and the loads of photos make this a must have for Allied armor fans and even Shermaholics!

Cheers
Andy

[TreadHead]

Howdy Andy,

First, a very warm welcome to the site! Glad to have ya aboard. :)

Next, this magazine you speak of, "Armes et Militaria Hors' series....where would one find this magazine? Do they have a web site? Are you talking about 'Steel Masters' magazine?
I'm very interested in this issue you speak of, especially your mention of applique armour being applied and not painted OD to match. Sounds like a nice little 'character' idea to consider adding to one of my Shermans........

Tread.

[amherbert]

Hi Tread

It's from the same publisher as Steel Masters. Histoire et Collection don't have a website. The magazine is Armes et Militaria, and the 'Hors-Serie' is a series on great battles of WW2. These are 84 page books in A4 size that are published quarterly. It's at issue 52 right now. Lots of great photos reproduced well and drawings by Jean Restayn. That's the guy who illustrated the Tiger 1 on the Eastern Front & Western Front books.

I don't know who is still carrying it here in the US. RZM has it available, but aren't up to date. I got mine in Montreal at Chapters. You could try Chapters web store (http://www.chapters.indigo.ca) to see if they have it. I know you can order copies direct from the publisher (I have before). It's cheaper to order it from them than in the US!! You can e-mail them at vpc@histecoll.com.

The books can be ordered for cover price (10.95 Euros) plus shipping. Subscribing is 46 euros per year. There are many of the back issue available from them, including the Marine Landings at Tarawa, fighting in New Guinea, Operation Torch etc. There are lots of the fall of France and its liberation etc. I could send you a scan of the issues available, etc. They take credit cards, and you can order over the phone, by mail, or e-mail. This is the second message about this company I've posted today! I should get a commission!! ;)

I should clarify my point about the extra armor. The photos include Shermans with added on armor which covers part of the white star. No repainting of the star. The plates themselves look sprayed because there is some overspray. The photos are all black and white. The plates look to match the OD base color, they aren't plain metal. My interest was in the fact these were slapped on over pre-existing marking that weren't repainted!!

Lots of great photos of Shermans and other tanks being loaded on LSTs, with the wading trunks, invasion markings etc. Flipping through the book just now, there's lots of stowage (tracks, bogie wheels, personal gear) on the hull fronts as they're being loaded and on the ships!! Those boys were ready to roll with all their gear! The British Shermans appear to have an almost standard load of two wheels on the driver's side, at least two runs of track links on the front, and some other gear. There are shots of US tanks loaded with stuff too.

If you need more details let me know.

Andy

[ShermiesRule]

Still very interesting that the stars were covered and not redone. I have a strong feeling my next build will incorporate this feature!!!

[amherbert]

Hi

I've taken pictures of a couple of photos from the book, and when I have time I'll post them here.

Andy

[amherbert]

Originally posted by ShermiesRule@Apr 8 2004, 08:05 PM
As I understand it, the first wave of armor was supposed to be DD tanks (with the propellers and raised screens) because they supposedly can "swim" in fron whatever distance they disembarked. Due to the rough seas most of them foundered and swamped...
That's only true for Omaha beach. Only 5 DD tanks made it out of 29 launched (numbers from the aforementioned Armes et Militaria book). Most of the DD Shermans made it to Utah and the Brit/Commonwealth beaches. I believe seas were so rough at Omaha that most of the DD tanks that were supposed to be launched were landed directly on the beaches; it was one unit that didn't get the message that was 'floated' in.

Cheers
Andy

[amherbert]

Here's a photo of an Uparmored Sherman without fixing the markings:
http://www.frontiernet.net/~andyherbert/Shermans.jpg

You can see the overspray from painting over the plates. There are other photos showing the same phenomenon. And of course, once in Normandy, a lot of the markings are missing/oversprayed.


Next, here are some M8 HMC being loaded. Lots of gear on board already:
http://www.frontiernet.net/~andyherbert/LoadingM8s.jpg

And finally, here's a load on ship, again the gear is plentiful, and there are several other shots of other Shermans with similar stowage on the glacis:
http://www.frontiernet.net/~andyherbert/LoadedShermans.jpg

And you can see the stars are overpainted. The extra armor plates look a different color. In the D-Day/Normandy armor volume there are lots of photos of British Shermans with the 3 bar tracks.

I hope this is of some help.
By the way, the blur in the photos is added by my rushed photos. The originals are great.

Cheers
Andy